Dual mic'ing help - WITH Dual Rec/Tele...

[JerEvil]

So I am looking at dual mic set up for guitars. I keep hearing about phase issues but don;t really know how to check for it.

Saw these. Fluff's thing seems pretty easy if you don;t have someone to move mic's around while you're playing but looking for any input you all might have.

Fluff:
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UDU_Enb_X8[/video]

MixBerlin (Tele and Dual Rec):
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwwrIcrzQA[/video]

This seems to be the easiest approach I have seen using the wave forms and matching up the peaks. If it is really that simple then I am pretty stoked. I am wanting to double mic my cab for making some profiles but don't want to make a thin sounding pile of shit! LOL!

I figure, I can try this method going into my Focusrite, then once the position is set, instead of the Focusrite, I'll go into my mixer with both mic's and then out from the headphone jack to the Kemper. I know that is how Drew did his and confirmed with Loop that this would work.

[Cirrus]

The quickest way I've found to get the mics in absolute phase;

- Crank amp with no guitar plugged in to get lots of white noise/ hiss (sometimes I add a distortion up front if the amp is quiet).

- Wear decent closed back headphones.

- Put both mics on cab, turn up volume of mics until you can clearly hear the amp hiss in your headphones and both mics are at about the same level

- Invert the polarity of one of the mic. Hiss will turn really hollow and phasey.

- Move one of the mics back and forth, listening to how the hiss changes sound. When you get the thinnest, quietest most hollow hiss you can get, the mic diaphragms are the same distance from the cone and you can switch the polarity of the inverted mic back to normal. This is the most in-phase you can get the mics.


Extra notes;

- Just because they're in phase, doesn't mean they're where they sound the best.
- They will never be PERFECTLY in phase for a number of complicated technical reasons, not least that the speaker you're miking up IS NOT A POINT SOURCE.
- A lot of times, people use more than one mic for a bad reason, like they can't commit to one mic, or they think it's more professional to multi mic a cab.
- When comparing the dual mic sound to the tone of each individual mic, remember that the dual mic sound will be about 3dB louder, and louder always sounds better. So a fair comparison to make sure the dual mic sound is actually better is by comparing A, B, then A(-3db)+B(-3db).
- The "Money for Nothing" tone is a product of out of phase multi-miking
- Some recordists deliberately use phase differences to emphisise/ attenuate some frequencies.

[JerEvil]

The quickest way I've found to get the mics in absolute phase;

- Crank amp with no guitar plugged in to get lots of white noise/ hiss (sometimes I add a distortion up front if the amp is quiet).

- Wear decent closed back headphones.

- Put both mics on cab, turn up volume of mics until you can clearly hear the amp hiss in your headphones and both mics are at about the same level

- Invert the polarity of one of the mic. Hiss will turn really hollow and phasey.

- Move one of the mics back and forth, listening to how the hiss changes sound. When you get the thinnest, quietest most hollow hiss you can get, the mic diaphragms are the same distance from the cone and you can switch the polarity of the inverted mic back to normal. This is the most in-phase you can get the mics.


Extra notes;

- Just because they're in phase, doesn't mean they're where they sound the best.
- They will never be PERFECTLY in phase for a number of complicated technical reasons, not least that the speaker you're miking up IS NOT A POINT SOURCE.
- A lot of times, people use more than one mic for a bad reason, like they can't commit to one mic, or they think it's more professional to multi mic a cab.
- When comparing the dual mic sound to the tone of each individual mic, remember that the dual mic sound will be about 3dB louder, and louder always sounds better. So a fair comparison to make sure the dual mic sound is actually better is by comparing A, B, then A(-3db)+B(-3db).
- The "Money for Nothing" tone is a product of out of phase multi-miking
- Some recordists deliberately use phase differences to emphisise/ attenuate some frequencies.

Yeah I have heard about doing it this way as well. Problem being... I don't know how to reverse the polarity. Can I do that on my mixer or does it have to be in my DAW?

These are the mic's I have:
• Shure SM57
• NOS Panther
• Sennheiser e609
• Blue Mics Bluebird

[nightflameauto]

What DAW you using, Jer? In Logic you add a utility gain plugin to a channel and there's a polarity switch on it. Not sure about other DAWs.

[JerEvil]

Yeah using Logic Pro. I'll have to start experimenting I suppose.

I am most looking to make sure that as I multi track with the Kemper that if I use different profiles there isn't some built in phasing that is going to make shit sound off. I'd ideally use my own profiles I create. This way I don't have to worry about that.

[Cirrus]

I am most looking to make sure that as I multi track with the Kemper that if I use different profiles there isn't some built in phasing that is going to make shit sound off. I'd ideally use my own profiles I create. This way I don't have to worry about that.

I'm not sure I totally understand this, do you mean you're worried that if you do one performance through profile A then a second performance through profile B you're worried A and B will be out of phase?

If so, don't be - the two different takes will be totally phase incoherent, so there will be no phase issues.

If you're recording one performance through profile A, then also recording that same performance through profile B either at the same time or by reamping, then yes there might be phase issues because there will be a fixed phase relationship between the two profiles since the input signal is exactly the same in both cases.

Or if you mean something totally different... sorry for being dumb.


Something to remember about phase is that we encounter phase issues literally all the time. Not equidistant between the L and R speakers in your car? Phase issue. Using a 4x12 and don't have your head exactly in front of the baffle? Klops was right, phase issue. Using two pickups at once? phase issue. Using an open backed cab? Major phase issue. Using one mic on one speaker? Phase issue - the mic is closer to some parts of the cone than other parts, and all the different parts of the cone have their very own sound. Using a close pair of mics to pick up stereo? Phase issue - that's part of how they create a stereo field.

Phase issues are only a problem if they sound bad, so just use your ears. If something sounds off, check for a bad sounding phase issue.

[EndTime]

This isn't gonna help your issue, although the white noise and flipping phase is what typically did. My opinion on dual micing is don't. Lol. I've experimented til i lost feeling in my brain. Its never as good as a single mic with great mic position. I might throw 2 or more mics up there and kinda have options, but i very very rarely find a dual mic tone that is better than a single mic

I'll Definitely use different mics for 2 seperate takes. That can be extremely beneficial, but no 2 close mic'ed mics will ever be truly 100% in phase. And for high gain stuff, at least, that phasing really gets screwy with the tone to my ears, even if its minimal.

I can see lower to.mid gain stuff not having as much artifacts from the phasing, so its not like it can't be done. And i have gotten good results, but after i did i realized why bother?

Good luck anyway tho..