Bargain condenser mic questions

[Reverse Entropy]

I've been looking at getting a couple of 'value' condensor mics for occasionally recording acoustic guitar or for a 'good enough' drum overhead. Strictly demo type stuff.

So far the Sennheiser MK4 and E614 look appealing, but I also wonder about the Audix F9.

Any opinions about these three or a similar $250-ish option ?

Using a Focusrite Scarlett 2i4.

[ajaxlepinski]

The large diaphram condnensers are more popular than small so, of the two your thinking about, I'd go for the Sennheiser MK4.

I have a Rode NT1A which is billed as the worlds quietest mic with a 5 dB-A s/n ratio.
This mic has had mixed reviews - some people, including Naked Zen, have had their NT1A suddenly die.
Mine's working fine... so far. I have about 80 hours on it and it's got great tone.

If I my NT1A dies, I'd get a Sennheiser.

[clipless bumper]

I have a CAD something - it seems passable.

[newholland]

the sennheiser is pretty spendy for what it is. i haven't used that particular mic, so i can't say it's worth it or not, but for a good general purpose mic, i'd recommend the CAD M179. it's not in any way something super 'flavorful'-- but for a very solid, flexible, neutral mic, it's tough to beat. it's a multipattern-- so it'll give you a lot of options in terms of how you can use it, it has a pad, it has a high pass filter, it has a case, and it has a shockmount, and you can pick them up for about $130. i have three of them, and use them constantly. i'd buy two of them for that price, and have real drum overheads. i use mine over a bunch of other LDCs 'cause i like how they sound for that, and it's nice to have the variable pattern to really dial things in.

[BroSlinger]

Op, would you go used?

Check out the old cad equitek condensers with the round logo.
E-ii
E-200
E-100
E-300

[newholland]

Op, would you go used?

Check out the old cad equitek condensers with the round logo.
E-ii
E-200
E-100
E-300

ha! i'm a fan of all of the above, and the m179 i was talking about above-- is a direct descendant of the e300. same capsule, and electronics are similar, but they have more efficient electronics that don't need the big old battery packs that were inside the equitek series. i use an e200 as my main LDC for vocals, and it's got a fatter juicier flavor to it-- but by the same token... the m179 isn't really that far off, and for half the price!

i am a fan of CAD mics, must be said. they make a great vocal condenser mic as well called the c195 too, that i do lurve.

[Dolf]

the akg C214 is supposed to be pretty decent.

If you're lucky, you can find a Blue Bluebird for cheap http://spacecoast.craigslist.org/msg/4910349193.html

Also, you can find a Baby Bottle for under $300, both blues are great mics

And, if you can find one for under $400, the Avantone CV-12 is a VERY cool mic that works great on guitar and voice.

EDIT:

For what it's worth, most every sub-$300 imported condenser microphone suffers pretty badly in a few key areas.

Either too bright or too dark

Too brittle or WAY too smooth

The top end feels either harsh or completely lopped off

There really isn't a great option in that price range. You basically trade off one set of issues for a different one. The ones I've listed are just a bit more expensive but better investments.

[colejustesen]

I have a Superlux S241 and I like what it sounds like! Works great for acoustic guitars (at least my acoustic guitar). I haven't ever mic'd drums, so I can't comment there...

http://www.amazon.com/Superlux-S241-U3/dp/B00DQVE9CU

I am pretty sure that it is a rebadged SDM, and one of the others "manufacturers" is CAD... specifically the CAD e70. The e70 costs less and comes with 2 capsules, a cardiod and an omni.

http://www.amazon.com/CAD-e70-Dual-Caps ... FHP5SVQ8RX

I also really like this site for listening to different recording gear:
http://www.zenproaudio.com/clipalator

Cole

[newholland]

For what it's worth, most every sub-$300 imported condenser microphone suffers pretty badly in a few key areas.

Either too bright or too dark

Too brittle or WAY too smooth

The top end feels either harsh or completely lopped off

There really isn't a great option in that price range. You basically trade off one set of issues for a different one. The ones I've listed are just a bit more expensive but better investments.

y'know.. theres a little truth in this- but i wouldn't consider it law- and by and large i disagree with the synopsis that there's not great mics in this price range. here's why.

a) theres WAY too many mics under $300 to've tried them all. i mean WAY too many.
b) there's just the $300 QC variations.. which can explain some difference, although it's been pretty small in my experience.

but most importantly- c) the devices used typically by people operating in this realm are ALL over the map in terms of input impedances and phantom power supplies actual voltages- which make and UNGODLY difference in the end product.

i will say absolutely, that given a stable, constant phantom voltage, and not super high input impedance input load, that a LOT of mics that i thought were meh turned out to be WAY better than i thought they were for years, and a lot of my cheapie performers got way better by leaps and bounds when i plugged them into single power supply devices with lower loads. less expensive interfaces and mixers shoot for the 'average'.. and to my ears, it's pretty far off with a 3-5kOhm input- where dropping it to 500 Ohms makes a MONGO difference over the entire spectrum to my ears. used to be (pre-mackie days) that your average was probably 3-500, but for whatever reason the VLZ pushed it higher, and things got crispy.. maybe made sense in the analog era... but gah.. it's harsh for digital.

anyhoo-- i definitely know that some cheapies SOUND bad through the average rig.. but by the same token-- even neumanns would probably sound mediocre as well, or be relatively indistinguishable due to loading and power issues. they might sound marginally better... but i know, f'rinstance, that my classic 70's akg 451e sounds godawful through my focusrite interface. WTF that mic sounds GREAT. i know it does. i put it into an inexpensive preamp with a beefy power supply and lower impedance.. it stops fizzling and popping, the top end gets super refined midrange goes full bore technicolor, it turns back into itself. doing the same with a super cheapie like a mxl v67g's elicits a similar response-- they power better on the voltage/8 of the interface and don't fuss nearly to the same degree. they sound very different- and i'd say, pretty doggone good for a $120 mic... like pretty great, actually. perfect? like a vintage u47? shit, emphatic 'no'. but fully serviceable absolutely yea!

i'd just say, like anything, use yer ears, and consider what they're plugged into. we really are in a golden age of affordable mics, and i think if all other things were equal (like we all used the same mixer with the same power and impedance)-- you might be right. but those things are things a lot of people don't have control over, and it damns a lot of well designed stuff to being thought of as mediocre- when even some of these inexpensive chinese mics can be pretty doggone great, especially given the 'basically free' price tag. good lord.. the junk we recorded with in the 80's and 90's... ugh. i would probably have killed for a pair of mxl LDCs then.. hell, i practically did for a pair of NT1's back then, and i was the only person i KNEW outside of a studio who owned a pair of large diaphragm condensers, and they were $700 at the time!

[EndTime]

I have 2 bargain price condensers that i use often and really like. First is the EV Cardinal. Apparently this was co-designed or designed by Blue Microphones, but the EV/Blue company merge didn't happen, or sumthin like that. It sounds like a Blue mic, if that makes sense. Very versatile. I use it on guitar cabs, drum over heads, vocals, acoustic, etc. Always lives up to expectations.

The next you'll need to find used is the Oktava Mk319 or 219. These arent perfect mics by any means, but they are pretty high quality if you get a true Russian made one. At sime point they were produced in China , while still being made in Russia. There's a quick rundown of the differences if you google. Pretty easy to spot the Russian ones. Basically when they were being produced in China, that really hurt this Mic's reputation. Cauae initially these were considered a pretty decent mic and originally sold for $500. Can be had used for $100-150. Plus, these have a pretty good reputation for being good mod platforms. Even a site called oktavamod.com , but his prices are pretty high nowadays..

Quick search confirms basically everything i mentioned.(just so i was sure my memory didnt fail me) here are 3 reviews on Gearsluts that basically echo my sentiments. Its a tremendous value while totally being its own thing modded or unmodified.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/reviews ... phone.html

[newholland]

I have 2 bargain price condensers that i use often and really like. First is the EV Cardinal. Apparently this was co-designed or designed by Blue Microphones, but the EV/Blue company merge didn't happen, or sumthin like that. It sounds like a Blue mic, if that makes sense. Very versatile. I use it on guitar cabs, drum over heads, vocals, acoustic, etc. Always lives up to expectations.

The next you'll need to find used is the Oktava Mk319 or 219. These arent perfect mics by any means, but they are pretty high quality if you get a true Russian made one. At sime point they were produced in China , while still being made in Russia. There's a quick rundown of the differences if you google. Pretty easy to spot the Russian ones. Basically when they were being produced in China, that really hurt this Mic's reputation. Cauae initially these were considered a pretty decent mic and originally sold for $500. Can be had used for $100-150. Plus, these have a pretty good reputation for being good mod platforms. Even a site called oktavamod.com , but his prices are pretty high nowadays..

Quick search confirms basically everything i mentioned.(just so i was sure my memory didnt fail me) here are 3 reviews on Gearsluts that basically echo my sentiments. Its a tremendous value while totally being its own thing modded or unmodified.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/reviews ... phone.html

holy sheez-- hell yes. a russian 319 is a great mic no matter how you slice it. i used them a lot in the late 90's and was too dumb to ever get a pair!

[fretless]

I have a AKG 220 on the way , I'll let you know how it is but by all accounts it's a very nice poor mans U87
http://recordinghacks.com/microphones/A ... eption-220

[newholland]

I have a AKG 220 on the way , I'll let you know how it is but by all accounts it's a very nice poor mans U87
http://recordinghacks.com/microphones/A ... eption-220

i like 'em!

i used one once, and it definitely didn't sound cheap. i dunno that it sounds like an 87.. but it sure wasn't the worst mic i ever noodled with. that's one of the blue ones?

[fretless]

yup a blue one . I'll do some clippys next week and see what she sounds like . I also have a Kel HM2D and a Telefunken m80 , a 57 beta and various cheap ribbons . My current fav I have is a Shure KSM27 which is a great little mic .

[newholland]

yup a blue one . I'll do some clippys next week and see what she sounds like . I also have a Kel HM2D and a Telefunken m80 , a 57 beta and various cheap ribbons . My current fav I have is a Shure KSM27 which is a great little mic .

you ever try the 27 up against a 32? i always wondered what the dif was besides black paint.. i have a buddy who had a ksm32 and he got really nice sounds out of EVERYTHING with that mic. seems like a serious sleeper.. but they ain't cheap! the 27 though is a lil bit mo' reasonable.

[fretless]

yup a blue one . I'll do some clippys next week and see what she sounds like . I also have a Kel HM2D and a Telefunken m80 , a 57 beta and various cheap ribbons . My current fav I have is a Shure KSM27 which is a great little mic .

you ever try the 27 up against a 32? i always wondered what the dif was besides black paint.. i have a buddy who had a ksm32 and he got really nice sounds out of EVERYTHING with that mic. seems like a serious sleeper.. but they ain't cheap! the 27 though is a lil bit mo' reasonable.

no this is my only experience with the KSM , I scored it at a MF SDOTD for I forget but maybe 100 bucks or less a few years ago. It's a excellent mic though , it has great clarity and detail . It's Made in the U.S. iirc . I know some of the KSM's get up there $$$ and I believe they discontinued this model but sweet mic nonetheless .

[newholland]

yeah, they're crazy cheap, and i've never heard anything but praise about that whole series, and from what i've heard they're great tools! i've seen the 27's go super cheap too and i just never bit 'cause the CAD m179 really kinda fits the bill for a lotta things i'd use a cheapie LDC for.. but it's still cool to see shures got a good one in the ring. i really can't stress enough how freakin good a ksm32 is... daggone. wish i had one for vocal duties!

[fretless]

and they are quality , they didn't cheap out like so many imports do . I have no doubt the higher end KSM's are fantastic mics . I'd love to have a few more too

[Reverse Entropy]

holy sheez-- hell yes. a russian 319 is a great mic no matter how you slice it. i used them a lot in the late 90's and was too dumb to ever get a pair!

Wow, looks like I need to shortlist the Oktava 319 then.

Are the 219s any good at all ? The prices on those seem crazy low.

[EndTime]

holy sheez-- hell yes. a russian 319 is a great mic no matter how you slice it. i used them a lot in the late 90's and was too dumb to ever get a pair!

Wow, looks like I need to shortlist the Oktava 319 then.

Are the 219s any good at all ? The prices on those seem crazy low.

Same mic technically as the 319, byt they are prone to body resonance. In other words the housing of the 219 is known to influence the sound of the mic. Both the 319 and 219 are some of the most prone mics to unwanted sounds do to the housing. If you have headphones on and are singing into the mic and touch the housing, or even just slightly touch the mic stand, you'll know what i mean. That low rumble will amplify over everything.

In most cases, if its in a shock mount or you never touch the stand, wind screen(its attached to the stand and will reverberate in the mic), or mc itself, you wont have too much to worry about. Big, loud sources like a bass or even guitar cab can induce those resonances as well.. But again, there are mids for this. My 319 is modded and damping the mic housing is basically as simple as it sounds. Typically putting some sound deadening foam to seperate the mic innards/capsule from the metal housing does wonders. Sounds like a lot to do, but its relatively easy.

[EndTime]

Also, you'll fund a bunch of Oktava owners who still think the 219 is the best of the bunch, as is..

Like i mentioned earlier, they have some obvious flaws, but their tone and character is generally perceived to outweigh their quirkiness. .

[Reverse Entropy]

i will say absolutely, that given a stable, constant phantom voltage, and not super high input impedance input load, that a LOT of mics that i thought were meh turned out to be WAY better than i thought they were for years, and a lot of my cheapie performers got way better by leaps and bounds when i plugged them into single power supply devices with lower loads. less expensive interfaces and mixers shoot for the 'average'.. and to my ears, it's pretty far off with a 3-5kOhm input- where dropping it to 500 Ohms makes a MONGO difference over the entire spectrum to my ears. used to be (pre-mackie days) that your average was probably 3-500, but for whatever reason the VLZ pushed it higher, and things got crispy.. maybe made sense in the analog era... but gah.. it's harsh for digital.

Oof. I'm sloppy, I wasn't thinking about impedance matching yet.

Question, and I'm not being a picky-ass I just want to clarify so I understand you properly...

Lower resistance (in AC, impedance) electrically loads a circuit more heavily (high current, low voltage drop) and high impedance the opposite (low current through, high voltage shows across the inputs). Did you reverse this when you typed that, or am I missing something ? [it's been a long while since my power circuits courses...]

Looking at my various few options in preamps / mixers for an upcoming mobile project, the "low" impedance inputs are all in the 3k to 5k ohm range you mention. Looks like I'm setting myself up to fail unless I find a lower impedance preamp for the mikes.

Perhaps a Presonus Blue Tube DP ? Any other suggestions ? From the discussions here I suspect I'll end up using a pair of M179s or KSM27s.

[newholland]

RE-- will get back-- at work, and need to give a real answer! but promise to reply later.

[EndTime]

I think i filled Newholland in on that fact when i mentioned its how i run my SM57.. ;-)

Anyway, yes some condensers like a Lo-z input, or sound better to some. But not all. Only way to know is you try it yourself. There technically is no right or wrong way..

And 3-5k ohm input impedance seems beyond any mic pres I've seen. My UA is 2k on hi-z, or 500 ohm on the lo-z. Most mic pres will be between 1.5-2.5k if they dont have adjustable impedance. I want to say Mackie mixers are 1.5k. Anyway, i think it'd be hard pressed to make a blanket statement on mics and input impedance. I typically use the lo-z, but there are times i forgot to switch it and i wouldn't notice to the session was over. I never felt the need to re-cut those trax.. I use my ear for mic placement and if it was too crisp I'd mic it so it wasn't.. Just as effective, if not more, than specific input impedance..

[newholland]

I think i filled Newholland in on that fact when i mentioned its how i run my SM57.. ;-)

Anyway, yes some condensers like a Lo-z input, or sound better to some. But not all. Only way to know is you try it yourself. There technically is no right or wrong way..

And 3-5k ohm input impedance seems beyond any mic pres I've seen. My UA is 2k on hi-z, or 500 ohm on the lo-z. Most mic pres will be between 1.5-2.5k if they dont have adjustable impedance. I want to say Mackie mixers are 1.5k. Anyway, i think it'd be hard pressed to make a blanket statement on mics and input impedance. I typically use the lo-z, but there are times i forgot to switch it and i wouldn't notice to the session was over. I never felt the need to re-cut those trax.. I use my ear for mic placement and if it was too crisp I'd mic it so it wasn't.. Just as effective, if not more, than specific input impedance..

i think it may've been

but it's true-- a lot of mics don't respond at all to input impedance, including my main vocal mic (a cad e200), which sounds.. well.. almost exactly the same through 300, 500, and 5000 ohms. which makes me nuts.. the strong phantom power makes a dif on some mics, like my 451, and not on others, which don't care. but having flexibility.. ahhh... that's the thing. tweaking to find the sound that's GOOD and having the capacity to do that is the key to getting the most out of cheap mics.

last recording i did, i actually did vocals with a 57 over any other mics 'cause it sounded best of ALL my mics on this one guy at 500ohms. all of my condensers sounded too fast and jumpy, too bright, just not at all what they wanted.. so we went with a butt stock 57 'cause it just seated better, and it sounded a lot thicker through a low z input. done and done.

ultimately it ALL comes down to ears over gears... but having a coupla other options can really help you out getting mics to suit a particular use, and give you tonal colors that're much nicer than just pluggin' in to a mackie or your interface.