Buzz/noise issue in my setup!

[alanvanwen]

Hi there!

Experiencing noise issues that I don’t know how to eliminate.

This is the signal chain WITH noise/buzz
Guitar - Rockboard MOD1 Patchbay - 29 EUNA - FreqOut - Mooer Slow Engine - Polytune - Quad Cortex Input (all powered through Patchbay - Cioks DC7).

I’ve tried Guitar - Patchbay - QC input: without buzz
I’ve tried Guitar - pedals - QC input: without buzz

It can’t be a mains/outlet issue since I’ve achieved a route without noise while still powered via Patchbay/Cioks DC7. So, I’m very confused. Thoughts?

[fretless]

How is it if going through the rockboard and nothing else? I would probably check all the cables with a meter and clean all the jacks as standard maintenance.

[alanvanwen]

I’ve edited my post to give more details including results of going through Rockboard only. The noise is gone, but it doesn’t make sense to me. If I go through only pedals, the noise is gone again.
The noise only comes back when I use both Patchbay + pedals.

[GuitarBilly]

My guess is that the jacks in the patchbay are not isolated and are causing a ground loop. One solution is to lift the ground on some of your connections, but I don't like doing that - and it may not even work depending on where you live.

Another solution would be to get isolation transformers like the Lehle P-ISO and use them to isolate the Cortex from the pedals.


Another possible solution would be to take the patchbay completely out of the equation, just power everything with the DC7 and connect the pedals directly into the Cortex. The DC7 is well isolated. This is my favorite option. Honestly, effects patchbays have to be fully isolated and they are usually expensive when done right. The cheaper Rockboard type of patchbays are a bit of a gimmick and usually cause this type of trouble, so it's best to avoid them all together.

[Marc G]

I’ve edited my post to give more details including results of going through Rockboard only. The noise is gone, but it doesn’t make sense to me. If I go through only pedals, the noise is gone again.
The noise only comes back when I use both Patchbay + pedals.

have you checked the cable the runs from the patchbay to the first pedal?

[alanvanwen]

My guess is that the jacks in the patchbay are not isolated and are causing a ground loop. One solution is to lift the ground on some of your connections, but I don't like doing that - and it may not even work depending on where you live.

Another solution would be to get isolation transformers like the Lehle P-ISO and use them to isolate the Cortex from the pedals.


Another possible solution would be to take the patchbay completely out of the equation, just power everything with the DC7 and connect the pedals directly into the Cortex. The DC7 is well isolated. This is my favorite option. Honestly, effects patchbays have to be fully isolated and they are usually expensive when done right. The cheaper Rockboard type of patchbays are a bit of a gimmick and usually cause this type of trouble, so it's best to avoid them all together.

This is what’s tripping me up. If the Patchbay was the problem, why does the noise disappear when I plug guitar into Patchbay then straight to Quad Cortex?

It seems I can use the Patchbay into Quad Cortex or I can use the pedals into Quad Cortex with no noise without using patch bay. But as soon as I use patch bay and pedals together into Quad Cortex, there’s buzz. Very odd.

[GuitarBilly]

My guess is that the jacks in the patchbay are not isolated and are causing a ground loop. One solution is to lift the ground on some of your connections, but I don't like doing that - and it may not even work depending on where you live.

Another solution would be to get isolation transformers like the Lehle P-ISO and use them to isolate the Cortex from the pedals.


Another possible solution would be to take the patchbay completely out of the equation, just power everything with the DC7 and connect the pedals directly into the Cortex. The DC7 is well isolated. This is my favorite option. Honestly, effects patchbays have to be fully isolated and they are usually expensive when done right. The cheaper Rockboard type of patchbays are a bit of a gimmick and usually cause this type of trouble, so it's best to avoid them all together.

This is what’s tripping me up. If the Patchbay was the problem, why does the noise disappear when I plug guitar into Patchbay then straight to Quad Cortex?

It seems I can use the Patchbay into Quad Cortex or I can use the pedals into Quad Cortex with no noise without using patch bay. But as soon as I use patch bay and pedals together into Quad Cortex, there’s buzz. Very odd.

It's not odd. The ground loop is between the pedals AND the cortex, both going through the same patchbay.

If you are just using the cortex through the patchbay there is no other grounding source (the pedals) to create the loop. Likewise, if you are just using the pedals through the patchbay there is no other grounding source (the cortex) to create the loop.

Once you add the 2 grounding sources (pedals and cortex), through the same, non-isolated patchbay, a ground loop is created. The solution is to either isolate one of the sources or ditch the patchbay.

[alanvanwen]

My guess is that the jacks in the patchbay are not isolated and are causing a ground loop. One solution is to lift the ground on some of your connections, but I don't like doing that - and it may not even work depending on where you live.

Another solution would be to get isolation transformers like the Lehle P-ISO and use them to isolate the Cortex from the pedals.


Another possible solution would be to take the patchbay completely out of the equation, just power everything with the DC7 and connect the pedals directly into the Cortex. The DC7 is well isolated. This is my favorite option. Honestly, effects patchbays have to be fully isolated and they are usually expensive when done right. The cheaper Rockboard type of patchbays are a bit of a gimmick and usually cause this type of trouble, so it's best to avoid them all together.

This is what’s tripping me up. If the Patchbay was the problem, why does the noise disappear when I plug guitar into Patchbay then straight to Quad Cortex?

It seems I can use the Patchbay into Quad Cortex or I can use the pedals into Quad Cortex with no noise without using patch bay. But as soon as I use patch bay and pedals together into Quad Cortex, there’s buzz. Very odd.

It's not odd. The ground loop is between the pedals AND the cortex, both going through the same patchbay.

If you are just using the cortex through the patchbay there is no other grounding source (the pedals) to create the loop. Likewise, if you are just using the pedals through the patchbay there is no other grounding source (the cortex) to create the loop.

Once you add the 2 grounding sources (pedals and cortex), through the same, non-isolated patchbay, a ground loop is created. The solution is to either isolate one of the sources or ditch the patchbay.

Oh my god, thank you! That makes so much sense to me, you’ve explained it exactly how I needed to read it…been waiting for a reply like this all day haha.

[GuitarBilly]

Hahaha glad to help man.

[alanvanwen]

:thu: Hahaha glad to help man.

Do you mind explaining why the Cortex alone is considered a single grounding source but the other pedals are also considered a single grounding source, even though they are multiple pedals?

(Apologies, i’m a massive dummy when it comes to grounding, I don’t even really understand what grounding means or what it is “to ground something”.)

[GuitarBilly]

How's the Cortex being powered?

[alanvanwen]

How's the Cortex being powered?

Every pedal is powered by a Cioks DC7. But the DC7 is also sending power to a Cioks Crux as a separate power only for the Cortex.

Saying that, i now realise it’s because pedals and QC are powered separately creating the ground loop in the Patchbay?
I guess I assumed the DC7 and Crux would count as a single power supply because they’re both powered from a single mains.

[GuitarBilly]

How's the Cortex being powered?

Every pedal is powered by a Cioks DC7. But the DC7 is also sending power to a Cioks Crux as a separate power only for the Cortex.

Saying that, i now realise it’s because pedals and QC are powered separately creating the ground loop in the Patchbay?
I guess I assumed the DC7 and Crux would count as a single power supply because they’re both powered from a single mains.

Yep. You answered your own question.

Single mains, 2 ground sources (DC7 and Crux). That becomes the loop when you put them both through the patchbay since the patchbay joins the grounds but doesn't isolate them. Without the patchbay you still have the 2 grounds, but they are just in series with each other. The patchbay put them in parallel and you get the loop.

It's the same thing that happens if you run pedals in front of the amp and through its fx loop. The amp put the 2 grounds in parallel without isolating them and you have a problem. That is what isolations transformers are for.

But in your case, it's best to just ditch the patchbay or get a properly isolated one. GigRig makes a few good ones (assuming you're in Europe, that would be the best source).

[alanvanwen]

How's the Cortex being powered?

Every pedal is powered by a Cioks DC7. But the DC7 is also sending power to a Cioks Crux as a separate power only for the Cortex.

Saying that, i now realise it’s because pedals and QC are powered separately creating the ground loop in the Patchbay?
I guess I assumed the DC7 and Crux would count as a single power supply because they’re both powered from a single mains.

Yep. You answered your own question.

Single mains, 2 ground sources (DC7 and Crux). That becomes the loop when you put them both through the patchbay since the patchbay joins the grounds but doesn't isolate them. Without the patchbay you still have the 2 grounds, but they are just in series with each other. The patchbay put them in parallel and you get the loop.

It's the same thing that happens if you run pedals in front of the amp and through its fx loop. The amp put the 2 grounds in parallel without isolating them and you have a problem. That is what isolations transformers are for.

But in your case, it's best to just ditch the patchbay or get a properly isolated one. GigRig makes a few good ones (assuming you're in Europe, that would be the best source).

Hi again, apologies for revisiting but I’m absolutely stumped and becoming extremely frustrated. I’ve replaced the Rockboard Patchbay with a new properly isolated patch bay but I’m still this buzz noise. Any other suggestions? For reference, I bought a 7 gang Patchbay from Bright Onion Pedals, UK.

[GuitarBilly]

I mean, it's definitely a ground loop. If the patchbay is isolated (I'm not familiar with the brand), then the issue should have disappeared. Unless there is a loop somewhere else. Can you detail your signal patch, unit by unit, in order?

[alanvanwen]

I mean, it's definitely a ground loop. If the patchbay is isolated (I'm not familiar with the brand), then the issue should have disappeared. Unless there is a loop somewhere else. Can you detail your signal patch, unit by unit, in order?

Guitar - Patchbay - 29 EUNA - FreqOut - Slow Engine - Polytune - Quad Cortex Input.
I’ve just tried Guitar - Patchbay - Quad Cortex input no noise. Then I started adding pedals one by one until the noise reappeared.
So, first I added Polytune,, no noise, then Slow Engine, no noise but adding in Freqout and 29 EUNA both bring the noise back. This doesn’t make sense to me because if I use these pedals without the patch bay, there’s no noise. And it’s all powered by the same source, CIOKS DC7. So I’m utterly lost.

[GuitarBilly]

I mean, it's definitely a ground loop. If the patchbay is isolated (I'm not familiar with the brand), then the issue should have disappeared. Unless there is a loop somewhere else. Can you detail your signal patch, unit by unit, in order?

Guitar - Patchbay - 29 EUNA - FreqOut - Slow Engine - Polytune - Quad Cortex Input.
I’ve just tried Guitar - Patchbay - Quad Cortex input no noise. Then I started adding pedals one by one until the noise reappeared.
So, first I added Polytune,, no noise, then Slow Engine, no noise but adding in Freqout and 29 EUNA both bring the noise back. This doesn’t make sense to me because if I use these pedals without the patch bay, there’s no noise. And it’s all powered by the same source, CIOKS DC7. So I’m utterly lost.

I had to look up what the 29 EUNA is, I had never heard of it. It seems like it's a signal driver of sorts.

Anyway, I am trying to understand the logic of your signal chain here. So a few questions:

1- What is the purpose of the patchbay? What are you trying to patch through it? Because the in signal chain you described, it doesn't seem like the patchbay has too much of a purpose...

2- what is the advantage of having this patchbay vs just using the pedals inline? I don't see what is it doing in the chain.

3- Are you using an amp or going direct from the QC?

4- if going direct are you using the XLR or 1/4" outs? If using the 1/4" outs, are you using balanced cables?


I am a bit confused by your signal chain altogether. If I had to wire this up myself I'd do guitar into the EULA, then the QC. Then I'd put the FreqOut and Slow Engine into the QC loops since you can turn the QC loops on and off and put then anywhere in the signal path with the QC. And given that the QC has a built-n tuner, you could even leave the Polytune out too.

[alanvanwen]

I mean, it's definitely a ground loop. If the patchbay is isolated (I'm not familiar with the brand), then the issue should have disappeared. Unless there is a loop somewhere else. Can you detail your signal patch, unit by unit, in order?

Guitar - Patchbay - 29 EUNA - FreqOut - Slow Engine - Polytune - Quad Cortex Input.
I’ve just tried Guitar - Patchbay - Quad Cortex input no noise. Then I started adding pedals one by one until the noise reappeared.
So, first I added Polytune,, no noise, then Slow Engine, no noise but adding in Freqout and 29 EUNA both bring the noise back. This doesn’t make sense to me because if I use these pedals without the patch bay, there’s no noise. And it’s all powered by the same source, CIOKS DC7. So I’m utterly lost.

I had to look up what the 29 EUNA is, I had never heard of it. It seems like it's a signal driver of sorts.

Anyway, I am trying to understand the logic of your signal chain here. So a few questions:

1- What is the purpose of the patchbay? What are you trying to patch through it? Because the in signal chain you described, it doesn't seem like the patchbay has too much of a purpose...

2- what is the advantage of having this patchbay vs just using the pedals inline? I don't see what is it doing in the chain.

3- Are you using an amp or going direct from the QC?

4- if going direct are you using the XLR or 1/4" outs? If using the 1/4" outs, are you using balanced cables?


I am a bit confused by your signal chain altogether. If I had to wire this up myself I'd do guitar into the EULA, then the QC. Then I'd put the FreqOut and Slow Engine into the QC loops since you can turn the QC loops on and off and put then anywhere in the signal path with the QC. And given that the QC has a built-n tuner, you could even leave the Polytune out too.

1. Patchbay is simply to keep all the routing in one place at the back of my pedalboard, this is where my FX Loops will be also. The Patchbay doesn’t have that much of a purpose, it’s simply an idea I’d hoped to work but at this rate, I’m becoming less optimistic.

2. Simply, to keep it organised and all in one small place. It’s a tiny advantage and probably not worth doing, I’m just trying to create my dream board quite simply haha.

3. I’m switching between two rigs.
Stereo Rig: direct from QC to Seymour Duncan Powerstage + Zilla 2x12 cab.
Mono rig: 4 Cable Method to a Mesa Dual Rectifier which belongs to my bands singer and refuses to explore QC opportunities so I’m constantly switching. Another reason for my patch bay, my Microcosm and BigSky will be permanently patched into the back, so I can patch these into my QC or swap with routing for Mesa 4CM.

4. Whenever I am going directly to my cabinet, I’m using standard TS guitar cables. Sometimes, I’ll play with my FRFR cab and use a XLR.

Thank you for all your help but I think I’m giving up on this. Gonna try set up my board a bit differently to make it easier, I’m starting to notice how much time I’m wasting on this.

[GuitarBilly]

Yeah I use a smaller patchbay (3 channels) for the same reason. Just to keep things organized. But I don't think going from the guitar right in the patchbay helps with anything.

And my guess is that the FreqOut and the EULA grounding don't work when they are patched through anything. I don't know the reason for this, probably the way the pedals are designed connects the ground to the input somehow.

I'd try this: Guitar>EULA>Polytune>FreqOut> Slow Engine> QC.


Then use the patchbay to manage your cables to/from the amp. That would keep things organized and hopefully solve the issue by placing the patch after the initial effects chain. Other than that, I am at a loss too. Sorry man

[alanvanwen]

Yeah I use a smaller patchbay (3 channels) for the same reason. Just to keep things organized. But I don't think going from the guitar right in the patchbay helps with anything.

And my guess is that the FreqOut and the EULA grounding don't work when they are patched through anything. I don't know the reason for this, probably the way the pedals are designed connects the ground to the input somehow.

I'd try this: Guitar>EULA>Polytune>FreqOut> Slow Engine> QC.


Then use the patchbay to manage your cables to/from the amp. That would keep things organized and hopefully solve the issue by placing the patch after the initial effects chain. Other than that, I am at a loss too. Sorry man

Yeah, that’s what I’ve ended up with anyway, oh well!
Thanks for all your help anyway man! You have no idea how many people I’ve asked for help on this and you’re the only one to actually tell me things I didn’t already know haha

[RyanDistortion]

This will be a Google search one day and you guys played your parts right