Modeling is the enemy of the people

[ke2]

One of the reasons for the humungous racks, was that they had one rack unit per effect
Or maybe even two. One SDE 3000 for the long delay, and another one for the short. One for chorus, and one for reverb, and if they had one song with a flanger, or similar, they added another unit for that one effect in one song.. Add that to preamp and power amp, and multiply everything with two, so the backup rack is okay... All of a sudden, there are 28 rack units filled with stuff.

I have a 6 unit for my noodling. 2 for the pre, 1 for the G-major (that has versions of the four units needed for "sauce"), and 3 for the power amp.

Yeah that's true. That was the original reason. But by the mid-80s there were definitely capable multi-effects units. However, the aesthetic s of the big rack was an important factor. I put together a 16 space rack in 1989 and it was cool. It was the "pro rig" look back then. Eventually I reduced it to 8u and it still did everything the bigger rack was doing, but it didn't look as cool definitely easier to carry though.


These days I think 4-6u would do everything I need, it just depends on the size of the power amp. But I've moved from racks for now. I will probably put another one together at some point though, since I still have a g-major 2 here.

I have two G-majors
Because they're getting old, and I like what they do.

The thing with the big racks was the mixer solution, where they could fade in any effect via a volume pedal. The multi-stuff in the mid-80s were decent, but the one trick ponies were studio effects, not guitar effects per se. Hell, Landau ran his effects AFTER the miced cab

[Heath]

Some of the old rack gear is getting ludicrous price-wise. I dusted off my modded ADA MP1 in the spring and instantly remembered why I used it for over a decade. I decided I should get a second one and repeat the same mod as a backup since it's nearly 35 years old. $600-$1000 was the average price for a good one. Was looking into some of the old Lexicon rack units from the early 00s and the same thing. The prices have crept back up on these items. Sadly, the days of picking up rack preamps and effects for under $100-$250 are probably behind us. I am still looking for a good Lexicon MPX G2 though.

[Riffraff]

I bought most of my rack preamps & processors just before covid hit...like 8 weeks before we were told about it.

I didn't know it at the time but that was the last days that deals could be had because prices shot up right after that.

Rocktron blowing out the ValveSonic Plexi preamp for $285 a copy kicked it off for me.
I grabbed one of those then got a MPX-1, a 2120, a Rock Master and a Sampson line mixer a few weeks later.
I added the snax a couple of months ago.

I have everything covered I would want.

Don't get me wrong, I see Michael Nielsen doing vids with Michael Toren's loaners and drool over the cool shit he is jamming on but realistically I don't need a thing.

[Heath]

I bought most of my rack preamps & processors just before covid hit...like 8 weeks before we were told about it.

I didn't know it at the time but that was the last days that deals could be had because prices shot up right after that.

Rocktron blowing out the ValveSonic Plexi preamp for $285 a copy kicked it off for me.
I grabbed one of those then got a MPX-1, a 2120, a Rock Master and a Sampson line mixer a few weeks later.
I added the snax a couple of months ago.

I have everything covered I would want.

Don't get me wrong, I see Michael Nielsen doing vids with Michael Toren's loaners and drool over the cool shit he is jamming on but realistically I don't need a thing.

I hear you. I wish I had known the price hikes were coming. I talked myself out of a few items in 19 and early 20 that I would have grabbed in a heartbeat at that price now. 15-20 years ago though was the golden age for rack gear at prices that bordered on theft. Racks had fallen out of fashion at that point. I picked up a mint rockmaster w/footswitch for $35 in 05 and an ADA MP1, ADA T100s, two ADA split stack 2x12s, ADA mpc foot controller, and a rat fur covered 6 space rack for $275 in 2006. People just gave it away because they couldn't get rid of it.

[GuitarBilly]

I'd love to buy that Rocktron preamp at around $300. Missed that opportunity.

[greatmutah]

I’d have loved to grab a Peavey Rockmaster on the cheap. Or even a blue line Ultra.

[Shask]

One of the reasons for the humungous racks, was that they had one rack unit per effect
Or maybe even two. One SDE 3000 for the long delay, and another one for the short. One for chorus, and one for reverb, and if they had one song with a flanger, or similar, they added another unit for that one effect in one song.. Add that to preamp and power amp, and multiply everything with two, so the backup rack is okay... All of a sudden, there are 28 rack units filled with stuff.

I have a 6 unit for my noodling. 2 for the pre, 1 for the G-major (that has versions of the four units needed for "sauce"), and 3 for the power amp.

Yeah that's true. That was the original reason. But by the mid-80s there were definitely capable multi-effects units. However, the aesthetic s of the big rack was an important factor. I put together a 16 space rack in 1989 and it was cool. It was the "pro rig" look back then. Eventually I reduced it to 8u and it still did everything the bigger rack was doing, but it didn't look as cool definitely easier to carry though.


These days I think 4-6u would do everything I need, it just depends on the size of the power amp. But I've moved from racks for now. I will probably put another one together at some point though, since I still have a g-major 2 here.

I have two G-majors
Because they're getting old, and I like what they do.

The thing with the big racks was the mixer solution, where they could fade in any effect via a volume pedal. The multi-stuff in the mid-80s were decent, but the one trick ponies were studio effects, not guitar effects per se. Hell, Landau ran his effects AFTER the miced cab

I thought about selling my G Major 2, as I liked my other rack gear better, but then last week I got a rack mixer, and set up a big tube stereo setup. Thing sounds amazing in stereo in killdry.

[Shask]

I bought most of my rack preamps & processors just before covid hit...like 8 weeks before we were told about it.

I didn't know it at the time but that was the last days that deals could be had because prices shot up right after that.

Rocktron blowing out the ValveSonic Plexi preamp for $285 a copy kicked it off for me.
I grabbed one of those then got a MPX-1, a 2120, a Rock Master and a Sampson line mixer a few weeks later.
I added the snax a couple of months ago.

I have everything covered I would want.

Don't get me wrong, I see Michael Nielsen doing vids with Michael Toren's loaners and drool over the cool shit he is jamming on but realistically I don't need a thing.

That is kind of what happened to me. I got the G Major 2, Intellifex, Replifex, and MPX-1 all right before and the beginning of Covid for around $140~ish each. Now I see they are $300-$400. Crazy.

I have thought about some tube stuff, especially a giant tube poweramp, like a Mesa 2:90 or something, but I cry at the current prices.

[Shask]

I bought most of my rack preamps & processors just before covid hit...like 8 weeks before we were told about it.

I didn't know it at the time but that was the last days that deals could be had because prices shot up right after that.

Rocktron blowing out the ValveSonic Plexi preamp for $285 a copy kicked it off for me.
I grabbed one of those then got a MPX-1, a 2120, a Rock Master and a Sampson line mixer a few weeks later.
I added the snax a couple of months ago.

I have everything covered I would want.

Don't get me wrong, I see Michael Nielsen doing vids with Michael Toren's loaners and drool over the cool shit he is jamming on but realistically I don't need a thing.

I hear you. I wish I had known the price hikes were coming. I talked myself out of a few items in 19 and early 20 that I would have grabbed in a heartbeat at that price now. 15-20 years ago though was the golden age for rack gear at prices that bordered on theft. Racks had fallen out of fashion at that point. I picked up a mint rockmaster w/footswitch for $35 in 05 and an ADA MP1, ADA T100s, two ADA split stack 2x12s, ADA mpc foot controller, and a rat fur covered 6 space rack for $275 in 2006. People just gave it away because they couldn't get rid of it.

I bought and sold a ton of rack gear around 2000. Sometimes I would like to get some of it again, but prices are crazy. I sold a Furman PQ-3 for like $70, now they go for like $600. Got a Peavey Rockmaster for $80. Had 2 of them. Mesa Studio Preamps for $250, now they are like $1000. Peavey 50/50 for $180, now they are like $600. ADA MP-1 for $90, etc.....

[linthat22]

I'd love to buy that Rocktron preamp at around $300. Missed that opportunity.

Dude, you and me both! I keep looking for the other preamps they showed off years ago in hopes of snagging a rarity.

[andvari7]

There’s a new player in the pedalboard modeler game: Fender. They will be releasing a Tone Master Pro, which could be a good or bad modeler, next week.

TGP, in their sea of sanctimonious boomery, is having a meltdown.

Makes me glad I went to the Orange.

[Bonano]

There's Deluxe Reverb RI ToneMaster for sale in my local classifieds for $650 that caught my eye. I remember when they first came out, people on YouTube were the Tesla of amps. I~ dunno about that now.

[GuitarBilly]

There’s a new player in the pedalboard modeler game: Fender. They will be releasing a Tone Master Pro, which could be a good or bad modeler, next week.

TGP, in their sea of sanctimonious boomery, is having a meltdown.

Makes me glad I went to the Orange.

Are they a new player? Didn't they have a few "Mustang" pedalboard units before?

I gave up on TGP and forums like that. Sanctimonious is right. Honestly, aside from posting here, I am mostly done with forums, except if I am searching for specific information.

There's Deluxe Reverb RI ToneMaster for sale in my local classifieds for $650 that caught my eye. I remember when they first came out, people on YouTube were the Tesla of amps. I~ dunno about that now.

I haven't tried any of these amps yet. But I like the concept better than these multi-amp modeling units. At least there is a power amp and a speaker there and it's dedicated to reproduce a specific sound rather than trying to do everything badly. But again. I haven't played the amps yet so I don't really have an opinion on them.


So idk, I am not against the concept of modeling or moving forward with new tech. I actually tried (as in, actually bought them) most modeling platforms out there and gave them a fair shot.
It's a bit like buying VCRs in the early 80s. They were like $2000 and totally NOT like "having the movie theater in your home" as the ads claimed But thanks to those early adopters, now we can have something that is actually high quality for something like 100 bucks. So I think people using/supporting modeling companies are playing an important role in supporting/financing the development of the technology. And that's a good thing.
But as far as heavy/distorted guitar tones go, they still don't sound as analog gear, period. I will keep checking out new products and keep an open mind, but still..

[Heath]

There’s a new player in the pedalboard modeler game: Fender. They will be releasing a Tone Master Pro, which could be a good or bad modeler, next week.

TGP, in their sea of sanctimonious boomery, is having a meltdown.

Makes me glad I went to the Orange.

TGP is always good for the laughs. The biggest complaint I have seen with the new Tone Master Pro is that they are listing it as $2300. People are asking why should we pay at or above Fractal/Kemper/Neural/Helix prices for Fender's modeling offering, and boomer rage aside, it's a valid question. Fender will have to show that it's worth it. I remember when the Helix dropped back in 2015 and people were asking why would we pay fractal prices for the next-generation Pod HD?

[GuitarBilly]

Digital needs to be cheap until the technology is fully developed.

I remember people trading jcm800s for the AxeFx Ultra. 10 years later the 800 is still over 2k and the Ultra is like 400 bucks now.


I think 300-500 should be the upper price for these things, so it doesn't hurt to trade up every few years.

Once the tech is fully done, then its not a problem to charge more. But it's not there yet.

[screamingdaisy]

A few months ago I played a Fender Rumble Studio 40, and I thought it sounded great (for a 40w practice amp).

[JSutter]

Has anyone every talked with someone who has never owned a traditional amp? I wonder what their angle is.

[screamingdaisy]

Has anyone every talked with someone who has never owned a traditional amp? I wonder what their angle is.

Yeah.

They were looking at getting a tube amp and thinking they needed a two notes to get the sound to FOH. The idea of using a mic on the cab never dawned on them and their brain exploded when I told them.


There's a segment of the internet that think soundman have panic attacks and will scream at anyone who shows up with a 4x12.

[spawnofthesith]

Has anyone every talked with someone who has never owned a traditional amp? I wonder what their angle is.

Yeah.

They were looking at getting a tube amp and thinking they needed a two notes to get the sound to FOH. The idea of using a mic on the cab never dawned on them and their brain exploded when I told them.


There's a segment of the internet that think soundman have panic attacks and will scream at anyone who shows up with a 4x12.

I've had some pretty um.. "debates" with people on TGP insisting that micing a cab was a really big deal for soundmen, and made the job nearly impossible to do/control/get good sound out of

[greatmutah]

That shit is idiotic to me thst people there believe that. If they can’t mic up a cab, then clearly they’re not (or shouldn’t be) a sound man.

[GuitarBilly]

Recently, I've dealt with some sound guys that seem to be terrified at the idea of having a guitar amp on stage. They will mic it, but they want the amp to be set super low. All my amps have a good master volume, so I will work with whatever they ask me to do but it's a bit of a drag to have to deal with this. If there is a drum kit, it's never going to be a silent stage, so at least let the other musicians level their instruments with the drums.
Thankfully, in the scene I play (original rock music) they are not the majority, but they are out there.

I imagine that for the cover/corporate/wedding bands, it's almost 100% like that now. Then again, I don't think guitar tone is crucial at these gigs so idk. But yeah, it's a problem.

[spawnofthesith]

In 2022 I was asked to turn my amp down during sound check at most gigs. For some reason, in 2023 I have not been asked to turn down once at a single gig. And it isn't because I've been rolling in quieter off the bat, if anything I've been jacking my roadster volume way up

[thermionic geek]

This still is a topic that frustrates me, despite my previous glib post.

I'm certainly not attributing this to anyone specifically but IMO, there is a lot of user error with modelers that influences the negative opinions. It easy to make them sound like crap. It isn't hard to make them sound good but it's tough to make them sound like you want them to. In general, I'd prefer to use my SLX with its preamp and a bunch of stuff on a board. It's a pain though. Modeling makes this so much easier and gives me a clean channel too. Then there are also all the other high gain options too. different boosts and what not. The SLX doesn't need a boost. But my Jubilee does if I want to use it for the stuff i play. It sounds great that way in 4CM but I swear I can get an almost identical sound from a Friedman model on the helix or a Cameron model on the FM3. There are some differences but i don't mind them and I can exploit them when needed. The tones are close enough for me.

The major reason I use the modelers is convenience. Its easy to set up and break down and keep relative clean/dirty volumes consistent while using a lot of effects and a synth. If I were playing AC/DC covers id use just the amp. I haven't been playing shows recently however, the places i play don't want to deal with going direct to FOH at all. I have a palmer for that if I need it. I don't like IRs. I think they are the reason modelers sound bad most of the time.

Maybe age and How we learned to play is a factor here too. I grew up and learned to play using a barely functioning 67 Bassman with a 2X12 bandmaster cab and a crappy Arion metal distortion pedal. The 800 came out around when I was learning to play and still wasn't enough gain for metal. I love big amps. but the distortion always came from a pedal. When I finally got a Marshall (A JTM60 combo) I had to get used to the concept of dynamics while playing and it just didn't have all the gain I wanted. plus it worked like shit with my pedal. There wasnt a big internet and i knew nothing of boost or tube screamers. Those were just shitty overdrive pedals that didn't sound heavy enough through the Bassman. I took a detour into multi effects floor pedals and used Digitech preamps for a while never really being happy.

I got a Voodu valve which isnt a modeler but is 100% digital except for the placebo tube and it was night and day better than the Digitech stiff. Then I tried a GSP1101 which I loved and then the FM3 and Helix. The Helix is the first thing i've ever used where I can run 4CM and it works without issue. The 4 effects loops allow me to integrate synths and i'm not trying to tweak individual channel volumes and effects before a gig. I plug it in and it works. 90% of my presets are modeled amps. Usually the same modeled amp. I still use the Marshall preamp along with stuff in the loop too but most of the time I'm too lazy to hook up those two extra cables.


TLDR: Unpopular opinion but I like modelers.

[GuitarBilly]

It's not an unpopular opinion. A lot of people like them. Different players hear things differently, it's all good.


I have to disagree about 4CM being a pain. Just get a snake. I use the CBI Livewinder. It's about $100 and it gives me 4 channels. So it's cheaper than buying 4 cables and they last me a long time. I actually have never had a problem with one.

I keep the pedalboard cable ends constantly plugged into a junction box and I zip tie that end of the snake to the board so there is no stress on the plugs when I moved the board with the snake plugged in.


So all I have to do is run the snake to the amp and quickly plug 4 connections. It's a single cable run, just with 4 wires inside. I's as easy a setup as going straight into the amp.

[GuitarBilly]

Geoff Tate has been doing the full digital thing, with the drummer with an e-kit and it sounds good. The overall sound is lighter than it would be with analog instruments, but at least the mix balances out well without the drums swallowing the guitars. Accept does the same thing. I think that's the way to go if you want to do modeling.