Guitar Gear Forum

So I'm in Ocean City now for Bike Week. (Yes, I drove my Chevy Tracker to attend Bike Week but that's not the point of this thread).

So tonight Joan Jett and Billy Idol are playing, but we also had some local cover bands. Both bands were pretty okay, just playing hard rock covers.

First band comes in. Kemper. Guitar is buried in the mix and the little I could hear was really fizzy. But I gave it the benefit of the doubt, maybe the soundguy sucks.

Second band brought this:



Same soundguy, stage etc and holy shit, the sound improvement was night and day!!! Like the 2 bands were in different planets.

Now, some say the audience can't tell the difference. Maybe they can't tell why, but during the first band show, people were staying away from the harshness coming from the stage. Second band has a much warmer sound and more people were actually watching and engaging with the band, perhaps because they don't feel like they're being attacked by mosquitoes.

Bottom line, if you're in a band that needs any amount of guitar heaviness, just don't do modeling. Pop band, wedding, corporate? Fine. But if you play hard rock or heavier, just don't do it.

Funny thing is both guitar players were actually decent but holy cow what difference the gear makes.

These days, I consider having good gear a competitive advantage. Other bands can do whatever they want...

I probably wouldn't notice if I didn't play guitar, at least the tone. I think it is fair to say that the felt stage presence/energy from the amps is definitely noticeable. Hell, if you're too close to the stage for a silent stage, you can't hear anything well. Those scenarios, I like to be further back so I can actually hear the mix/band.

Cole

Upside down cab.

NinjaRaf wrote:Upside down cab.

Tone is in the top

I remember going a festival few years back with some friends, I didn't know the majority of the modern bands on the line up so I was relying on some friends that I went with to tell me who was worth looking at.... the observation we made was, guitars were sounding meh when they should have been crushing just based on the genre alone.... we saw they were all pretty much using Kempers but, it wasn't till Eagles of Death Metal came on with their back line of Orange Amps did the light bulb go off, after that it was clear, every band using modeling just sounded weak... once there were real amps on stage it was great...



the flip side of that is I believe Def Leppard were using Kepmers or AxeFX rigs that night as well and they sounded pretty amazing... so I guess it could also just boil down to being a headliner and getting a proper soundcheck and having pros set your shit up for you.... but.... one band out of a dozen sounding great is pretty shitty odds lol

Same thing when I saw Maiden last year. Within Temptation opened and had Kemper Stages. They didn’t sound awful but guitars felt a little lost. When Maiden hit? Different ball game. I could see on one side off stage they had a couple racked up Marshalls. They sounded amazing.

Yeah I think Def Leppard is a bit of an exception because they have been using the Rockman sound since the 80s. Even when they were using the Marshall JMP-1 they filtered it to emulate the narrow band sound of the Rockman.

Vivian Campbell said that he had this amazing sounding rack when he joined the band coming from Whitesnake and he had to EQ it down to the Leppard sound.
So their guitars have been narrow and keyboard-like since Pyromania.
The earlier albums did have some beefy Marshall tones but they don't play most of that material anymore.

Maiden switched to Fractal recently

What if the entire band went through Sansamps, or something similar? How would that be, versus the Kemper/Snax/Helix rig?

Its funny I recently did my first gig using a Captor exclusively as my "cab", and it worked well and everything, but even that, running a real amp head into it was different in a not great way. I want to try it again, using a patch that is less EQ'd, hopefully a bit more "broad sonic bandwidth", but long term the Captor might just wind up a thing to use at home.

MacaroniSalad wrote:Its funny I recently did my first gig using a Captor exclusively as my "cab", and it worked well and everything, but even that, running a real amp head into it was different in a not great way. I want to try it again, using a patch that is less EQ'd, hopefully a bit more "broad sonic bandwidth", but long term the Captor might just wind up a thing to use at home.

I used my Captor X in a gig for the first time not too long ago as well.... granted I was using a cab on stage and the Captor was put in the PA for pretty much sound reinforcement Vs my entire sound... that being said... I was told it sounded great in the crowd, but not too sure how much of the actual captor was in the PA Vs my Amp on stage though...


My Band has messed with an acoustic format where I was using my electric in to an amp with the Captor X and no cab direct to the PA and the couple rehearsals we did I was pretty happy with the sound

tbh I can't remember the last time I saw someone using a modeller live any time recently, and I see live music pretty actively most weeks

GuitarBilly wrote:Yeah I think Def Leppard is a bit of an exception because they have been using the Rockman sound since the 80s. Even when they were using the Marshall JMP-1 they filtered it to emulate the narrow band sound of the Rockman.

Vivian Campbell said that he had this amazing sounding rack when he joined the band coming from Whitesnake and he had to EQ it down to the Leppard sound.
So their guitars have been narrow and keyboard-like since Pyromania.
The earlier albums did have some beefy Marshall tones but they don't play most of that material anymore.

Maiden switched to Fractal recently

I guess that makes sense.. they still sounded massive though.... so I'd still say it boils down to how it's set up and dialed in AND having a FOH team that can make it work in a mix... my experience with digital shit is you need to do extra things to make it sound like an amp, like additional compressors, preamps, EQs etc to make it sound like a live amp

andvari7 wrote:What if the entire band went through Sansamps, or something similar? How would that be, versus the Kemper/Snax/Helix rig?

I think that's better than digital modeling. A lot of bands go through Palmers to the FOH sound even though they have cabs on stage. The Tech 21 gear works extremely well, especially on bass. But their guitar gear is great too. They might need some extra EQ on the board, but they do sound way more natural than modeling in a live setting IMHO.

I always can tell. Maybe the audience can’t, but I can 100%. And what the audience doesn’t connect is when bands are all direct there is simply a life and liveliness that is missing from the sound. And that translates to a show where people might be like “Sounded good, but it was a little boring.”

Doing this Slayer cover thing we play with a lot of bands who use some sort of direct device. And it’s not all “metal” bands we have to play with Danzig and Maiden covers and of course Metallica and many others. Altho we really try to keep it true to Slayer for the most part. But some of these bands are totally pro. The maiden one here, Maiden Chicago. Have a singer who legit nails it and have a giant Eddie who comes out and other stage props. Just saying they have it all pretty locked down. And I’m sure people still enjoy em, but their tones and overall sound is like your playing the cd. Some might be like, well that’s great!! Not really for me, cause Live should have a different energy. Should have something Different to add to the experience of that bands music. And to me, they are all great players and singers and their sound is just bland as it gets to me, same with the Danzig one. They all do a great job l, guitarist runs direct and EASILY the worst part of the band. This band even had John Christ join em for a few shows. I should check that out cause I imagine he ran an amp. And even had Glen sue them for using that giant Horn skull as their stage prop. How hilarious. That’s when John christ joined them. Prolly as a fuck you. But anyway, these are very good tribute acts, and that direct shit just kills the energy for me

spawnofthesith wrote:tbh I can't remember the last time I saw someone using a modeller live any time recently, and I see live music pretty actively most weeks

I think you're more in the jam band circuit, which is fucking awesome about bringing real gear and getting great tones. That and the Doom/Stoner rock bands. These are the 2 scenes that are 100% playing guitar based music the way it should be. If you go to a Doom show, it's 100% guaranteed you will get crushed with heavy guitar tones. Oranges, Plexis, Sunn, Laney etc and tons of fuzz and analog pedals... just awesome.
Jam bands, same thing, everybody have their amps and some of the rigs are really elaborate and cool, mixing vintage and modern shit, lot of cool unique pedalboards, even rack shit sometimes.
Blues bands are pretty good with their rigs too.

But with regular hard rock, metal, covers, tributes it's all hit or miss. Some bands still care while others just go digital and don't give a shit.

MacaroniSalad wrote:Its funny I recently did my first gig using a Captor exclusively as my "cab", and it worked well and everything, but even that, running a real amp head into it was different in a not great way. I want to try it again, using a patch that is less EQ'd, hopefully a bit more "broad sonic bandwidth", but long term the Captor might just wind up a thing to use at home.

yep, I had similar experiences. Going with the amp and IR is better than full modeling but there is still something missing.

GuitarBilly wrote:

MacaroniSalad wrote:Its funny I recently did my first gig using a Captor exclusively as my "cab", and it worked well and everything, but even that, running a real amp head into it was different in a not great way. I want to try it again, using a patch that is less EQ'd, hopefully a bit more "broad sonic bandwidth", but long term the Captor might just wind up a thing to use at home.

yep, I had similar experiences. Going with the amp and IR is better than full modeling but there is still something missing.

For sure. We got good reviews on the sound from the crowd, which is great, but I want my experience to be great, regardless of what the audience thinks

I think I might grab a Harley Benton 2x12 just for extra onstage reinforcement, while not being as big as a 412.

GuitarBilly wrote:

spawnofthesith wrote:tbh I can't remember the last time I saw someone using a modeller live any time recently, and I see live music pretty actively most weeks

I think you're more in the jam band circuit, which is fucking awesome about bringing real gear and getting great tones. That and the Doom/Stoner rock bands. These are the 2 scenes that are 100% playing guitar based music the way it should be. If you go to a Doom show, it's 100% guaranteed you will get crushed with heavy guitar tones. Oranges, Plexis, Sunn, Laney etc and tons of fuzz and analog pedals... just awesome.
Jam bands, same thing, everybody have their amps and some of the rigs are really elaborate and cool, mixing vintage and modern shit, lot of cool unique pedalboards, even rack shit sometimes.
Blues bands are pretty good with their rigs too.

But with regular hard rock, metal, covers, tributes it's all hit or miss. Some bands still care while others just go digital and don't give a shit.

True, I don't go to as many metal shows as I used to and it was definitely more prevalent there, especially with the djent/prog/whalefart bands

I don't remember on what site but some guy was arguing with me insisting that he could easily recreate the sounds of a Sunn O)))) show with a helix going direct

Saw some local death metal bands recently and 5150 IIIs came on and off the stage 3 times. could've just backlined one

still Gasing for one of those

spawnofthesith wrote:
I don't remember on what site but some guy was arguing with me insisting that he could easily recreate the sounds of a Sunn O)))) show with a helix going direct

you know.. when someone says something like that... it's no wonder they can't hear the difference. Because that's complete tone deafness.

andvari7 wrote:What if the entire band went through Sansamps, or something similar? How would that be, versus the Kemper/Snax/Helix rig?

I use a SansAmp and it's great. It's somewhat standard for bassists to run direct, however it's usually in parallel to a live amp on stage.

IMO, at the level and venue sizes I assume most of us are performing at I think people underestimate how much of the house sound is stage bleed.

I have no doubt that going direct and minimizing mic bleed makes for a better mix... but, does it produce a better experience for the audience? My opinion is no, it doesn't.

Why on earth would I want to go see a live band and listen to them crushed down into a PA when I could be hearing their instruments live off their speakers?

spawnofthesith wrote:I don't remember on what site but some guy was arguing with me insisting that he could easily recreate the sounds of a Sunn O)))) show with a helix going direct

As someone who owns a helix and uses it live very often, I can see maybe getting a decent-ish recorded facsimile of the tone using the helix model of their signature fuzz and the modeled Sunn amps, but the idea of getting THAT tone live with just a helix is hard to fathom. Maybe with a monster PA I could feel comfortable getting a close enough tone for a single cover song, but that is still a big ask.

What I find odd is that when I run my QC into my power amp and then into my 4x12, it sounds as punchy as loud as my Rocktron Chameleon. Is there something I should be listening for between the two? People have been saying the guitars get lost in the mix or come out fizzy and I would prefer to not have that happen to me.

Is it more to do with mix in a live situation or something in the frequencies?

screamingdaisy wrote:

andvari7 wrote:What if the entire band went through Sansamps, or something similar? How would that be, versus the Kemper/Snax/Helix rig?

I use a SansAmp and it's great. It's somewhat standard for bassists to run direct, however it's usually in parallel to a live amp on stage.

IMO, at the level and venue sizes I assume most of us are performing at I think people underestimate how much of the house sound is stage bleed.

I have no doubt that going direct and minimizing mic bleed makes for a better mix... but, does it produce a better experience for the audience? My opinion is no, it doesn't.

Why on earth would I want to go see a live band and listen to them crushed down into a PA when I could be hearing their instruments live off their speakers?

Fair points; my only response to the last question would be that it isn’t always possible to hear the amp on stage. It usually isn’t, in my experience. Or, I’m not paying close enough attention.

Well, my 1st attempt at using my Atomic Ampli-firebox was a complete failure. Had it sounding good at home. Band opened for a guy last night. We got the quick plug in & see if it works sound check. Somehow it had reset & I had nothing but a weak clean sound.. ugh