I think I'm done with modeling

[greatmutah]

I got a Helix right around start of the pandemic time. It's been a solid unit, been through some firmware changes. Just got my USB repaired on it so I could try the new cab modeling and amps I've missed... and it's doing nothing for me. It's funny, I was super excited to get it back and try some new stuff but... nothing. On its own I get no joy from playing through my monitors. Using it as a second or third channel for my amps in 4CM hasn't really worked for me. I'm sure it works for some folks but not so much for me. The effects on the other hand are outstanding. I love using it as a pedalboard into my Fender. But I also have real pedals that do everything I need as well. Not sure if I'll sell it or just put it away, as it is a good tool for recording and such but I haven't been doing much of that at all. When I do record, I prefer micing up a cab/speaker. This isn't me entirely trashing modeling because it really has come a long way since the Flextone I had 20 years ago. But even though I don't get to play loud all the time, I prefer hearing a real amp and real speakers in the room. And it just feels better anyway.

[spawnofthesith]

[GuitarBilly]

I hear you man. I can't get anything I really like out of modeling either. Passable results at best. I sort of get the convenience factor if you're in a busy cover band where having a killer heavy tone is not the biggest priority.

But my spending cap for modeling is $500. If I were to buy one these days, I'd probably get a Pod Go again or even an older unit like the Amplifire or 11 Rack. I think Hotone is making some affordable and decent units too. That's money I can spend without thinking too much about it, it's sort of like buying a fancy pedal.

But these $1k+ units, no way.

I'd sell that Helix while it's still worth a good amount of money. If you want to keep something for when the modeling itch hits again, get a cheaper unit and keep the change.

[greatmutah]

Yeah I'm thinking it could go towards something I'd use or at least enjoy more.

[spawnofthesith]

Yeah I'm thinking it could go towards something I'd use or at least enjoy more.

Like that new Metropoulis

[GuitarBilly]

Yeah I'm thinking it could go towards something I'd use or at least enjoy more.

the problem with modeling is it loses value after a while. It's not like having a tube amp that you can set aside for a long time if you're not going to use it and it will still retain value.

The newer modelers are holding value a bit longer than the older generations but still. There will be a day where your Helix is a $300 device. So sell it while it's hot.


I think once modeling reaches full development the values will stabilize. But it's not even close to that yet.

[greatmutah]

Yeah I'm thinking it could go towards something I'd use or at least enjoy more.

Like that new Metropoulis

Hah! I’d love that! Honestly been looking at a Dr Z or Suhr Hombre head. I’d love to drop $3K on a new Metro though. George would love for me to do it too

[EndTime]

It’s only good for practice tools. Or low volume jamming and working on demos.

I used to say, others can make it work for em, but I think I retract that statement. I can always tell suMthin is off. Even pro recordings. Cause there are plenty of pro albums with fucking Kempers or AXE or whatver. And I can tell.

But of course their argument would be this is just the NEW direction etc. but that direction isn’t necessarily responsible for the devalue of music these days, but it surely hasn’t helped build music up. I sincerely believe the use of Modeling and profilers etc, has homogenized the sound of music. Especially metal and other guitar focused music. It’s created one big bland soup of sound. So much so people expect that sound even. And when it doesn’t sound the same, it gets dismissed quicker it seems.

And yes, the use of modelers doesn’t mean You HAVe to do that. In theory it should be MORE freedom. But it’s not. And we can see this type of behavior and tendencies across many walks of life. And the rise of technology hasn’t increased creativity, it’s dampened it and afforded those with maybe little to offer, a chance to ape and copy the original shit to a degree that it devalues the true greats…

Basically what I’m saying is Unabomber warned us all… hahah. Joking. But not kidding.

[JiveTurkey]

Never be done.

[NinjaRaf]

I do not like modeling at all. I tried for a bit, but it just sucks to play through and listen to compared to the real stuff.

I agree...the ease of access these days has really made it so anyone with a basic modeler can be recording whatever they want within a year with basically no experience even playing a guitar at all. For sure makes it easy to devalue the stuff that is actually good.

[JiveTurkey]

The modeler doesn't play the guitar for you. I wish it did I don't think there are many sonic improvements that can be made at this point to the modeling itself. Playback device is the biggest and most difficult to clear hurdle. Mainly because you can't fake the physics.

[EndTime]

The modeler doesn't play the guitar for you. I wish it did I don't think there are many sonic improvements that can be made at this point to the modeling itself. Playback device is the biggest and most difficult to clear hurdle. Mainly because you can't fake the physics.

It’s definitely that. I think some life can be injected by using Digital shit into real speakers. But the one thing IRs and running direct truly doesn’t provide is the “movement” and air of the guitar speaker. I know there is some added things that try to emulate that, but an IR is a still picture of the one thing that physically moves in the amp chain, the speaker. Only so close a still image can get to a moving picture… Altho, I’ve been meaning to produce this demo that I hear in ALL modeling. Which is easier heard on higher strings but there is this “wavering” that happens in the very upper register while sustaining and bending notes. I can reproduce it on them all. And I really don’t see too many people mention it and I’m shocked it isn’t more mentioned cause it’s a glaring difference and flaw to my ears.

But I agree the actual “sound” is fine. It’s all the details and stillness of the rest of the chain that doesn’t get it right

[nightflameauto]

I've started referring to playing my Helix as "the uncanny valley effect." Yes, I'm playing the same guitar and getting a similar recorded tone to my amp, but something just feels a little tiny bit off-kilter. Not enough to tick me off, but enough to notice. In fact, I'd almost argue that when the differences were more stark it wasn't quite as weird feeling because there wasn't any vibe from the modeler to speak of.

I listen to a lot of bands now that are clearly using modelers, probably even the Helix specifically, and while I can nail their tones if I spend some time fiddling, playing through it is an odd sensation every time. It's fun for 2 AM idea jotting, and sometimes adding oddball layers to real amps in recordings, but I don't think it'll ever be something that can replace the real amp.

If someone put a gun to my head and told me I had to choose between the Helix or the shitty little Peavey Studio Pro? I'd choose the Studio Pro. I'd decide to choose the amps even faster if it came down to the DSLs or the Helix.

[JiveTurkey]

The modeler doesn't play the guitar for you. I wish it did I don't think there are many sonic improvements that can be made at this point to the modeling itself. Playback device is the biggest and most difficult to clear hurdle. Mainly because you can't fake the physics.

It’s definitely that. I think some life can be injected by using Digital shit into real speakers. But the one thing IRs and running direct truly doesn’t provide is the “movement” and air of the guitar speaker. I know there is some added things that try to emulate that, but an IR is a still picture of the one thing that physically moves in the amp chain, the speaker. Only so close a still image can get to a moving picture… Altho, I’ve been meaning to produce this demo that I hear in ALL modeling. Which is easier heard on higher strings but there is this “wavering” that happens in the very upper register while sustaining and bending notes. I can reproduce it on them all. And I really don’t see too many people mention it and I’m shocked it isn’t more mentioned cause it’s a glaring difference and flaw to my ears.

But I agree the actual “sound” is fine. It’s all the details and stillness of the rest of the chain that doesn’t get it right

Might be an interesting vid. Most content of that nature always erupts into heated "discussions" all over the place. So it might be good fodder for jump-starting a YT channel

[Tortuga]

At least you have a good backpack to put it in

[EndTime]

The modeler doesn't play the guitar for you. I wish it did I don't think there are many sonic improvements that can be made at this point to the modeling itself. Playback device is the biggest and most difficult to clear hurdle. Mainly because you can't fake the physics.

It’s definitely that. I think some life can be injected by using Digital shit into real speakers. But the one thing IRs and running direct truly doesn’t provide is the “movement” and air of the guitar speaker. I know there is some added things that try to emulate that, but an IR is a still picture of the one thing that physically moves in the amp chain, the speaker. Only so close a still image can get to a moving picture… Altho, I’ve been meaning to produce this demo that I hear in ALL modeling. Which is easier heard on higher strings but there is this “wavering” that happens in the very upper register while sustaining and bending notes. I can reproduce it on them all. And I really don’t see too many people mention it and I’m shocked it isn’t more mentioned cause it’s a glaring difference and flaw to my ears.

But I agree the actual “sound” is fine. It’s all the details and stillness of the rest of the chain that doesn’t get it right

Might be an interesting vid. Most content of that nature always erupts into heated "discussions" all over the place. So it might be good fodder for jump-starting a YT channel

My one and ONLy vid. 5 million views!! Haha. And I never post again

[JiveTurkey]

My one and ONLy vid. 5 million views!! Haha. And I never post again

Do it!

[greatmutah]

At least you have a good backpack to put it in

It's a super nice backpack! Thanks again on that bro!

[GuitarBilly]

My main problem with digital as whole is that it sounds thin when played against analog instruments. Especially in a live mix. You hear the guitar by itself and it's fine but as soon as the drummer start hitting his kit, that guitar sound is super thin in comparison. You can hear it fine, but it's thin. It's kind of like the difference between printing the same exact picture in poster board and tissue paper, yeah it's the same picture, but one is much thinner and more frail than the other.

In the studio is not that big of an issue (although I can still notice it) but live it's just awful. Even with the biggest bands like Metallica etc..

I don't think it's necessarily a DI issue. Analog DI is not detailed enough for recording, but it's fine in the live environment. A lot of bands use the little Palmer/Radial boxes for their FOH sound without issues.

The thinness seems to be an issue with digital instruments in general not only guitar modeling. When I was doing that electronic duo, I had problem getting the drums to have any weight on the mix. I was playing my guitar through a full analog rig and when I listened to the live recordings, the guitar and vocals were dominating everything. Like playing/singing over a CD.
I talked to a friend of mine who does EDM and hip-hop and he told me to get an analog drum machine. Then all of a sudden, the drums were there. They were not being mixed any louder, but you could hear them and feel them much better.

I've learned that even for what we call "electronic" music, artists and producers use analog instruments for anything that need to have any weight in the mix. Drum machines, bass synths, all the best ones are analog. Digital is used for pads, strings are things that don't have to carry any weight. So guitarists are going in the opposite direction than what people that make actual electronic music have already known for a long time.

Do I think this modeling trend is contributing to the decline in popularity of rock music? Yes, I do. Not only because everyone is using the same presets and sounding the same, but also because it's really fucking underwhelming to go see a rock show and the guitars sound completely thin and limp. I had this experience several times, recently, with bands I actually like... Rammstein, KMFDM, WASP, Queensryche letc.. all bands I've seen before with actual gear and they're now using Kempers and it's really underwhelming. They were still good shows because these are good bands, but goddamn what a difference.

With local bands, forget about it. As soon as the mosquito guitars start I am out.

Rock is not classical music or jazz where you have these delicate nuances. It's high energy, visceral music and if you remove that visceral aspect from the music, you are left with simple power chords with no actual power whatsoever. So yeah it's a problem.

[EndTime]

I’ll add, been doing this Slayer tribute thing for a bit now. We’ve had a pretty exceptional first 4-5 months. Played about a dozen shows, to packed houses for the most part. And we’ve garnered a pretty big name already. Already playing out of state and getting more and more offers as well. And while this isn’t a ton different than playing other gigs over the years, I’m gonna use it anyway. Lol. But many of the other cover bands we play with use modelers. Helix, head rush, Axefx are some of what I’ve seen.


Now, I do believe our playing energy is a big part of why we consistently seem to command way more crowd response but…. we use real amps. Our drummer refuses triggers. Everything, mistakes and inconsistencies and all, are front and center and full of energy. Anytime I watch these other bands running all direct, it’s plain as day there’s no life to the sound. It’s obvious to me. The crowd doesn’t know any different. They just hear what they are hearing but that direct shit doesn’t pack any life to the sound. And their response is partly because of the sound. And basically every show I have people saying we’ve been crushing them… Including just the sound. Even my mom(who’s enjoying her time as the “metal mom these days at the shows she’s come to) mentioned specifically the SOUND of us compared to this other band recently. She’s like your guitars are so much easier to hear and surround the room.. If my 70yo mom is saying it,…?? And I told her, it’s cause those dudes all run direct… She sorta understood lol. But she was like it sounded totally different.

[JiveTurkey]

@Bill; agree completely. Adding a real amp back to my equation has been awesome for me. Even with some modeling involved vs. all modeling. I get to take the Mark out this Friday to gig and I am looking forward to it!

@ET; your band's FB is always blowing up with shows. It's super cool that you are able to get out and do this \m/ I know it's not the same as scratching that original metal itch but it's gotta be a ton of fun nonetheless and you still get to play some brutal riffage \m/

[andvari7]

How does the Bluguitar fit into the equation? It’s an amp, I get that, but it also has a line out. Would an analog device going direct have the same blandness as a modeler? I’m seriously considering selling my Helix, and ordering a Bluguitar Amp-X, as soon as the Germans can get one.

[GuitarBilly]

How does the Bluguitar fit into the equation? It’s an amp, I get that, but it also has a line out. Would an analog device going direct have the same blandness as a modeler? I’m seriously considering selling my Helix, and ordering a Bluguitar Amp-X, as soon as the Germans can get one.

The Bluguitar is all analog and sounds great direct in a live setting. It's more like using a Palmer DI from your amp. It's not like a modeler at all.

[GuitarBilly]

I’ll add, been doing this Slayer tribute thing for a bit now. We’ve had a pretty exceptional first 4-5 months. Played about a dozen shows, to packed houses for the most part. And we’ve garnered a pretty big name already. Already playing out of state and getting more and more offers as well. And while this isn’t a ton different than playing other gigs over the years, I’m gonna use it anyway. Lol. But many of the other cover bands we play with use modelers. Helix, head rush, Axefx are some of what I’ve seen.


Now, I do believe our playing energy is a big part of why we consistently seem to command way more crowd response but…. we use real amps. Our drummer refuses triggers. Everything, mistakes and inconsistencies and all, are front and center and full of energy. Anytime I watch these other bands running all direct, it’s plain as day there’s no life to the sound. It’s obvious to me. The crowd doesn’t know any different. They just hear what they are hearing but that direct shit doesn’t pack any life to the sound. And their response is partly because of the sound. And basically every show I have people saying we’ve been crushing them… Including just the sound. Even my mom(who’s enjoying her time as the “metal mom these days at the shows she’s come to) mentioned specifically the SOUND of us compared to this other band recently. She’s like your guitars are so much easier to hear and surround the room.. If my 70yo mom is saying it,…?? And I told her, it’s cause those dudes all run direct… She sorta understood lol. But she was like it sounded totally different.

100% to all of this. And yeah it's clearly noticeable to anyone, even a 70 y.o. metal mom lol

A lot of these guys are fooling themselves with their YT blind tests etc...forget about this nonsense and test it where it really matters, onstage etc. If you can't tell the difference between a live mix with amps and one with modeling I can't even begin to talk tone with you

[NinjaRaf]

Metallica is actually a great example. I remember seeing them in 99 and was completely blown away. This was way before I knew shit about gear, and had only been playing a couple of years. Then again in 2009, and it sounded amazing. My wife and I saw them in 2017, and of course the show was great, but the guitars just aren't there. Thin is a good way to put it, but they also seemed to get buried. The drums, despite Lars' mediocre playing, were like fucking AHNOLD biceps, while the guitars were Where's Waldo weak little wimpy arms. Pathetic by comparison.

I don't really get why bands at this level bother with this crap. Is convenience really a concern here? Just use your fucking amps...someone else is moving them and setting them up anyway.

There was certainly a period of time that I was looking for convenience, but never could get into the modeler stuff. At some point I just decided nah, fuck this bullshit. If I am getting on stage, I want the half stack sticking it's dick in the audience's ears from behind me on stage because it's that fucking big. Fuck modelers.