Modeling is the enemy of the people

[Adrian]

Maiden switched to Fractal recently

To be fair, I think they’re only using the preamp section of the amp modeling of the Axe FX 3. I saw a photo of Dave Murray’s rig, and you could clearly see that his Marshall power amps were active.

[thisguy]

OUCH!!!

[Ostinato Rubato]

All of this is going to change with the next Helix firmware update. Really’s gonna put it head and shoulders above all previous modeling products.

[Marc G]

All of this is going to change with the next Helix firmware update. Really’s gonna put it head and shoulders above all previous modeling products.

[GuitarBilly]

All of this is going to change with the next Helix firmware update. Really’s gonna put it head and shoulders above all previous modeling products.

I love that you chime in from time to time to shit on the Helix

[JiveTurkey]

1. Great at home when you can't crank an amp.
2. AWESOME for recording.
3. Good when your entire band is on board and/or you are doing some silent stage crap.

Despite certainly being an advocate; I am ok with being on board with this thread premise

[Bonano]

With so many pros using it for so many years, it's not user error?

[GuitarBilly]

With so many pros using it for so many years, it's not user error?

The pros using it almost universally don't sound as good as they did when using amps. So, no.

[thermionic geek]

I don't know. A modeler as preamp to Marshall tube amp has been my rig for like 20 years. I'm not a rock star yet. Maybe there is something to this.

[Adrian]

With so many pros using it for so many years, it's not user error?

The pros using it almost universally don't sound as good as they did when using amps. So, no.

Metallica is definitely one band that I can tell are now using modelers live, and the way they have their stuff dialed in just sounds so dull to me.

What’s ironic is that they are using their Fractals within a “traditional” setup, as they use power amps and 4x12s with mics on them. Granted, the power amps are those solid state Matrix power amps that a lot of Fractal users love, but still, even without tubes, you would think that James and Kirk could dial in some sort of great tone since they’re still pushing air. I don’t get how a band as massive as they are don’t just continue to use their tried and true tube rigs live.

[screamingdaisy]

In Metallica's case, they did it for the consistency.

Leap frogging between an A and B rig on tour, plus a C rig for publicity events, plus whatever they have sitting in other continents. Going Fractal meant they could save settings and they'd sound more or less the same everywhere.

It's part of the reason I think there's different rules for small local acts vs big stadium acts. It's why I think that something that works for Metallica (with their cadre of top notch engineers) might not work for me (with Steve the soundguy, who smoked a J before showing up for shift because his gout is inflamed and he is now setting up mics in slow motion).

[GuitarBilly]

Consistently bad IMHO. I don't think it works for Metallica as they don't sound nearly as good as they used to. Neither I think there are any savings involved in the change, because these guys travel with their entire stage all over the world, they could carry 10 4x12s each and it would be a drop in the bucket in terms of shipping and setup time. I think it's management that comes up with this type of suggestions. Corporate types. And it sounds good in their in-ears so they probably can't tell. But they're at a point of fame where no matter what they do, they will sell out stadiums, so maybe it doesn't matter.

[BroSlinger]

Agreed.

Real amp = awesome

Fake amp = shit.


I’ve never fallen for it.

[Ostinato Rubato]

With so many pros using it for so many years, it's not user error?

The pros using it almost universally don't sound as good as they did when using amps. So, no.

Metallica is definitely one band that I can tell are now using modelers live, and the way they have their stuff dialed in just sounds so dull to me.

What’s ironic is that they are using their Fractals within a “traditional” setup, as they use power amps and 4x12s with mics on them. Granted, the power amps are those solid state Matrix power amps that a lot of Fractal users love, but still, even without tubes, you would think that James and Kirk could dial in some sort of great tone since they’re still pushing air. I don’t get how a band as massive as they are don’t just continue to use their tried and true tube rigs live.

Imagine the level of fail one commits by buying one of the most iconic Gibsons and then plugging it into some modeling bullshit.

[greatmutah]

I think Kirk does shit like that just to troll everyone.

[NinjaRaf]

lol

He also dropped that guitar on it's face and had to get the headstock repaired. But apparently it was once smashed into 25 pieces in a car accident and was rebuilt anyway lol.

[TurboPablo]

Metallica has been a slow motion fail since Cliff died.

[Yarbicus]

Metallica has been a slow motion fail since Cliff died.

I have this recurring dream of Cliff going to the future and hearing St Anger. After he returns he looks at Lars and says, "Hmm...guess I better make sure that I am not the only who dies in that crash."

[GuitarBilly]

I don't know. I like the Black Album and the Load/Reload era. It's a completely different sound from the early days but I still like it. Honestly the only albums I really dislike were St Anger and the Lou Reed project. The recent albums have been good too.

And the live shows were always great. Still are, except the guitar sound is deflated now. But Metallica by now is a well established cultural phenomenon, they're not really competing with other metal bands anymore, their level of fame transcends the style. So I don't think sound quality or heaviness etc makes a difference at this point.

[TurboPablo]

I don't know. I like the Black Album and the Load/Reload era. It's a completely different sound from the early days but I still like it. Honestly the only albums I really dislike were St Anger and the Lou Reed project. The recent albums have been good too.

And the live shows were always great. Still are, except the guitar sound is deflated now. But Metallica by now is a well established cultural phenomenon, they're not really competing with other metal bands anymore, their level of fame transcends the style. So I don't think sound quality or heaviness etc makes a difference at this point.

I had a hard time with how stiff they got between MOP and AJFA. Even as a 15 year old, I could hear how much of the groove died with Cliff. When the first garage days came out, I was stoked. Like, "ok, the next album is going to rage!". But then I got my hands on AJFA and couldn't believe how stilty it sounded. I know a lot of it had to do with Lars knee capping Jason in the final mix. But still, those songs were so over written. The difference Cliff made was very stark. It was more of the same with the the Black Album. I checked out after that. If they had kept it raw like the original Garage Days, I think I would have felt differently. But, I also admit that that is mostly a reflection of where my own tastes were at the time.

There was also the fact that to me, at that point in time, Mave and Marty were eating their lunch and taking their milk money.

1990s' Megadeth>>>>>1990s' Metallica.

[TurboPablo]

Regarding their use of Fragals, I agree. There is no excuse. They should be crushing everything with walls of Marks.

[screamingdaisy]

Consistently bad IMHO. I don't think it works for Metallica as they don't sound nearly as good as they used to.

Agree.

But they're at a point of fame where no matter what they do, they will sell out stadiums, so maybe it doesn't matter.

This is kinda my point, although I generally suck at articulating it.

For the last decade whenever the amp vs modeller subject comes up it's always "Yeah, but Metallica..."

...and I'm always thinking, they're paying professionals to ensure they sound great, and at best they're pulling off ok. If they and all their high priced help can't figure it out, what hope does someone like me have of doing it any better?


Les Paul + Marshall = done.

[VTM]

All of this is going to change with the next Helix firmware update. Really’s gonna put it head and shoulders above all previous modeling products.

[linthat22]

What I find odd is that when I run my QC into my power amp and then into my 4x12, it sounds as punchy as loud as my Rocktron Chameleon. Is there something I should be listening for between the two? People have been saying the guitars get lost in the mix or come out fizzy and I would prefer to not have that happen to me.

Is it more to do with mix in a live situation or something in the frequencies?

Anyone? I'd like to know what y'all are listening for

[GuitarBilly]

What I find odd is that when I run my QC into my power amp and then into my 4x12, it sounds as punchy as loud as my Rocktron Chameleon. Is there something I should be listening for between the two? People have been saying the guitars get lost in the mix or come out fizzy and I would prefer to not have that happen to me.

Is it more to do with mix in a live situation or something in the frequencies?

Anyone? I'd like to know what y'all are listening for :thu:

IMHO there are 2 parts to this, the fizziness and getting lost in the mix.

The fizziness is quite simple to solve. When you run a digital amp straight into the PA you need to program high and low pass filters. A regular guitar speaker reproduces a limited range of frequencies, usually around 80hz to around 6-8khz. Digital equipment does not have these limitations so you end up getting a lot of frequencies above and below that range. And while you don't necessarily hear them while you're playing, they end up interfering with the overall sound. So setting a HPF around 80-100hz and a LPF around 8khz or lower is important when dealing with digital amps through a PA or FRFR speakers.

That said, this might not even be an issue for you since you're running your modeler through a power amp and guitar speakers and micing the cab, which will already limit the frequency range. I'd still add the filters in your presets just in case.

The issue of getting lost in the mix is more complex IMHO. Because it not about frequencies, it's about density. Analog instruments are denser than digital instruments and sit heavier in a mix. This is not limited to guitar. It also goes for drums, keys etc.
By itself, digital gear sounds fine but when mixed with analog instruments, the analog will easily overpower it.

In my experience, the solution for this is to make the analog vs digital choice global. Meaning, if you want to go digital, do it for the entire band.
Modeling for guitar and bass, synths, e-drums. That levels things out and makes the mix more uniform.

But if you're going to use modeling against a regular drum kit, as soon as the drummer starts hitting the kit, it overwhelms the digital guitar, not necessarily in volume but in weight.

Going full digital for every instrument, you end up with a mix that is lighter overall than it'd be with guitar amps and a real drum kit, but at least the mix itself is balanced.